Holding a mirror up to the American debt machine, with Elena Botella

I started very idealistically, I think, with this mental model that people want and need to borrow money, right? Like, I think that's why many of us are drawn to this industry, right? Because we see that if you need to borrow money, it's good to have options.

That was my mental model coming into it.

Overtime, I started to see really that so much of what was happening to consumers wasn't driven by how much they wanted to borrow, it was really driven by how much the bank wanted to lend. And I really wanted to understand those dynamics more.